Revisionism from the Orient
Joachim Gross interviews Ahmed Rami in Stockholm
The so-called Revisionist Congress in Munich on March 23, 1991 caused considerable agitation.
Revisionists are those contemporaries who maintain that no genocide of Jews in gas chambers of German concentration camps took place. Among many other arrivals were one expert for execution-technology, Fred Leuchter from the USA, Prof. Robert Faurisson from France, American historian Mark Weber, British historian David Irving and the Moroccan Ahmed Rami, who operates a radio station in Sweden. These personalities are by no means incorrigible Nazis. To reduce the professional qualifications of the revisionists to such a definition would be rather too simple and unjustified.
Prof. Dr. Gerhard Jagdschuetz of the Historical Institute of the University of Vienna issued an expert opinion, dated Jan. 10, 1991, in connection with revisionist literature, for the District Court in Vienna. The main statement of this report concluded that for the most part all that can be found to confront the revisionists gas chamber denying literature is a large number of personal experience accounts or non-scientific literature. Furthermore, so the report says, through their expertise and revisionist research, "many of the fundamental beliefs have been shaken up". Prof. Jagdschuetz resumes "the mere rewriting of court decisions and reference to the 'judicial notice' of Jews being exterminated in the Auschwitz gas chambers, are not sufficient any longer to arrive at a just verdict in a state that intends to build a legal structure based on a democratic system".
Our editorial staff therefore believes that the revisionist's arguments should be released for public scrutiny.
J.GROSS: Mr. Rami, you attended the Revisionist Congress on March 23, 1991 in Munich. You said that the Germans are being discriminated against in their own country and have fewer rights than the Jews in Germany. In your radio broadcasts here in Stockholm you claim the same is true in connection with the Swedes. Is that propaganda or do you actually believe this tale?
RAMI: Well, that Jews enjoy privileges in the non-islamic world, especially in Germany and Europe, is a fact. In Germany you may defame Arabs or Arab nations without having to fear prosecution as a consequence. To mention the truth about Auschwitz, however, is prohibited.
J.GROSS: Isn't the reason for this that the crimes against the Jews by the National Socialists are considered unique in history?
RAMI: Let's assume that everything you have heard about NS-crimes against Jews is true. But how can you consider these occurrences as being unique? The Bolsheviks annihilated 7. Mill. Ukranians alone. The Turks killed 5 Mill. Armenians. Pol Pot murdered 3 1/2 Mill. of his Cambodian countrymen. The Americans holocausted millions of Indians and the Communists slaughtered 60 Mill. of various peoples within their reach in the East. Do you still want to claim uniqueness in connection with the crimes committed against the Jews?
J.GROSS: To bring up other killings in history is ethically unjustifiable. You know that even just one murdered victim is one too many!
RAMI: That is an interesting argument. But it is always applied only when German guilt is to be recorded as unique for all times. If one dead person is enough, why isn't one single dead symbolically pilloried. Why are millions invented and then used against the German people as a mechanism for deprivation of rights? Don't the innocent murdered German children, women, war disabled soldiers matter? Is the life of a German valued less than that of a Jew? Your arguments are further proof that the Germans have fewer rights in their own country than Jews, even in the remembrance sphere of the dead.
J.GROSS: This sounds as if you are defending National Socialism.
RAMI: I am a revisionist and am interested only in facts. Politic and ideology we may discuss later.
J.GROSS: The fact remains that 6 Mill. Jews were systematically gassed in cold blood.
RAMI: Now we are coming to the main subject-matter. With respect to the plan which you mentioned, for the past ten years or longer, most historians have been in agreement that no such plan for extermination of Jews existed during the Third Reich. Even Raul Hilberg, the Holocaust Pope, has in the meantime admitted to that. Then the book by Jewish Princeton Prof. Arno J. Mayer "Why Did the Heavens not Darken" was published 1989. In your country it was published by Rowohlt with the title "Der Krieg als Kreuzzug". Therein Mayer proves that there was never a plan nor an order for the alleged extermination of Jews. He regards it as an accident. Don't misunderstand me. While Mayer has come close, he has not yet arrived at the whole truth. His book should be considered as a bridge for the retreat of the holocaust front. Most interesting is Mayer's reasoning according to which more than half of all camp inmates, in Auschwitz as well as in the other concentration camps, were non- Jews. The perhaps most important element in this book is the concession that more than half of all camp inmates died of natural causes and that Auschwitz was never designated as an extermination camp.
J.GROSS: What are you trying to say?
RAMI: The only document in our possession since Sept. 1989 thanks to Gorbatshov, the official register of the dead list shows approx. 74 000. When one compares these documents with Mayer's realizations, then approx. 30 000 Jews died in Auschwitz, 15 000 of them died of natural causes. Provided 15 000 Jews were murdered in Auschwitz - for which, however, there is as yet no proof - can you still talk about a genocide in an extermination camp? Let me confront this with an example in your own country. During one night alone, 315 000 civilians were burned to death in Dresden by an Allied terror bombardment.
J.GROSS: Isn't it a crime to put people into concentration camps because of their race or nationality?
RAMI: You are right, but in Canada and the United States Japanese and Germans were put into concentration camps during WW II solely because of their origin. Wars create often laws that are not very democratic or humane.
J.GROSS: Even Herr De Maiziere spoke of 6 Mill. murdered Jews on the occassion of German unification.
RAMI: That statement is not true at all. (What else could he have said? To come out with the truth and have the Jewish Community sceam "blue murder" at that critical time?). The former French Nato-General, Ferdinand Otto Miksche, presents proof in his book "Das Ende der Gegenwart" (The End of the Present) published 1990 by the German Ullstein Verlag, that there were definitely no more than 1,5 Mill. Jews within Hitler`s reach! Consequently, had Hitler gotten hold of all Jews, then, according to Prof. Mayer, 350 000 at the most could have been killed in all of Europe. But this figure is not correct either. It will be reduced considerably when gas chambers as a murder weappon are omitted. I have here the book "History of the Second World War" by the English official historian Prof. F.M. Hinsley. On page 673 Hinsley is going over the records of the large German concentration camps, including Auschwitz which he discribes as the largest of all camps. He documents that all arrivals and departures were recorded daily. According to the reports, illnesses and diseases were the principal causes of all death. We read here, however, that there were also reports of death by shooting and hanging. The emphasis is on the word "also". Thus, death by shooting or hanging were the exeptions. "However, no references to gassings could be found in the decoded reports." Why, one has to ask oneself, should the Germans not have reported death by gas but those by shooting and hanging? After all, they should have felt quite secure with their coding of messages.
J.GROSS: Still, the gas chambers existed. It is utterly ridiculous trying to deny them.
RAMI: We revisionists are not denying the existence of gas chambers. We are refuting it. With scientific proof at that! Incidentally, the gas chamber fairy tales are nothing more than propaganda-recycling. Already, during WW I the English alleged that the Germans had killed 700 000 Serbs in gas chambers. That was pure attrocity propaganda, as we know today. But I want to ask you if anyone has proven to you the existence of gas chambers? You appear to be totally convinced in this matter.
J.GROSS: There are literally thousands of survivors. I myself have seen and heard many survivors on TV.
RAMI: I am sure you have. Here I have the charges and accusations of the Nueremberg Military Tribunal. These files contain the statements, given under oath by the American military. For instance, here is the confidential file B/L Hq. 7th Army SG 000.5-51 JA by David Chavez. Then there is the famous document L-159 by the investigating agent Barkley. Both documents, like so many others, are signed under oath. These documents (and I hate to call them documents, since they are in reality serious lies) describe in detail the alleged mass killings in the gas chambers of Dachau. Today we know that these testimonies were perjuries. Now, I am asking you; why are the eyewitnesses, who have "seen" the gas chambers in Dachau liars and not the ones who claim to have "seen " the gas chambers in Auschwitz? In both cases, the testimonies are identical in connection with the killing methods of the gas chambers.
J.GROSS: Well, there is still the famous Frankfurt Auschwitz-Verdict. There it was established, beyond any doubt, that the gas chambers existed. How can you ignore a decision that was made after three years of proceedings?
RAMI: I am glad you mentioned the Auschwitz-Verdict. It considerably supports our doubt about the existence of any gas chambers. I want to point out, in all the important NS-Trials, there never was any actual proof introduced. Not even in the famous (or infamous) Frankfurt Auschwitz-Trial, e.g. at no time were any technical investigations requested or performed or any mathematical calculations introduced. It is the rule in any criminal trial that, any actual proof will be valued more than the testimony of a thousand witnesses. Amnesty-International complained just recently about the judicial practices of various dictatorships, because their verdicts were based on eyewitness accounts only. Amnesty-International condemned all verdicts that were without any factual proof as a violation of Human-Rights.
I have here the verdict of the Frankfurt Auschwitz-Trial. Please, read with me page 109. "The court regrets not to have seen any scientific testimony or proof in connection with the murder weapon". In this case the so-called gas chamber. This is really a bad joke.
The alleged gas chambers, that is to say the instruments of death, are still there, in their original condition as the tourists are told. A team of experts could have gone there to investigate them. It is still possible today. The verdict also states that hundreds of thousands were burned in open excavations approximately ten feet deep. During an on-the-spot visit of the court, it did not seem important enough to perform a ground test. A man with a shovel could have determined that the water table is only 2 feet below the ground, where the burning of bodies allegedly took place. How could the burning of Jews then take place ten feet deep?
On page 110 the Court relied on the testimony of "a few believable witnesses". One of those "believable" crown witnesses was a truck driver, Richard Boeck. Here I have his account given in the prosecutors office in Frankfurt. Read and judge for yourself. Boeck imagined to have seen the commandos go into the alleged gas chambers, pulling out the corpses, while the blue haze of the lethal gas was still hanging over them. Boeck was surprised that the commandos went into the blue haze of Zyklon-B without any gas masks for protection. Were those commandos somehow naturally immune against poison gas? Since the Gulf-War we know that a normal gas mask provides no protection against hydrocyanic-acid gas. After every hydrocyanic-acid execution in the U.S. the gas chamber has to be thoroughly ventilated. The gas is forced through a high chimney by mechanical means. Only after that, can a team in protective clothing, reminiscent of space suits, enter to remove the corpse. Mere skin contact could result in instant death. If actual gassings with hydrocyanic-acid gas had taken place in Auschwitz and the alleged death camps, all living things in that area would have been killed as well.
Look at this photograph of the alleged gas chamber in Auschwitz. A wooden door with several inches of space at the bottom. The door opens to the inside. The commandos, waiting on the outside of the so-called gas chambers would have been killed along with their intended victims.
But aside from just that, we must ask; how did the commandos get into the room, since, after "eyewitness" accounts, thousand of compressed corpses were piled up behind the door trying to "escape"? A floor drain through which the gas could have escaped into the sewage system is also in that room. The whole camp complex would have been gassed and "exterminated". The camp commandant as well as the lowly inmates. Right next to the "chamber" is the crematory without a door. Hydrocyanic-acid gas is also highly explosive. Therefore, if gassings and cremations were going on, as the experts of the holocaust dynasty always insist, the whole camp would have blown up.
J.GROSS: Are you trying to say that all witnesses have been lying!?!
RAMI: I leave that conclusion up to your intelligence. The American execution expert for gas chambers, Fred Leuchter, compiled a report, well-known around the world today as "The Leuchter-Report", about his findings on the alleged gas chambers in Auschwitz, Birkenau and Majdanek. He determined, due to technical inadequacies as well as negative findings of the expected poison gas residues in the walls of the so-called gas chambers, that those rooms could never have been used as gas chambers for the purpose of gassing Jews. The Alhpa-Laboratories, under the direction of Cornell University Professor Dr. James Roth, examined those findings. Here is a letter from March 13. 1991, of your now former German justice minister, Herr Engelhard, who acknowledged the Leuchter-Report to be the result of a scientific investigation. (For this he was relieved from his post.)
J.GROSS: Perhaps, the poison gas residue cannot be found anymore, because so many years have passed.
RAMI: Cyanide residue is very persistent on stonework. It leaves traces of iron in the brick and mortar for almost an eternity. Only acid, or great amounts of water could remove the residue. For that, the brickwork would have to remain under water for a hundred years. But that is not the case. The alleged gas chamber in Auschwitz 1 is nonetheless, in its original state, as the tourists are being told. The other alleged gas chamber in Birkenau, however, is partially collapsed. But the interior is in good condition. Interestingly, the residue in the collapsed building, better known as gas chamber, had just as low concentrations of iron traces as the intact gas chamber in Auschwitz 1. Still, great amounts of residue were found in the delousing-chambers. If the gassing of Jews really took place in those alleged gas chambers, as we are led to believe, the residue would have been a thousand times higher than was actually found in the delousing-chambers.
J.GROSS: Why is the whole subject not investigated by an independent scientific team, to clear up the matter, once and for all?
RAMI: We Revisionists are asking ourselves that same question. Why are the gas chamber experts so afraid of an investigation in this matter? We, on the other hand, keep asking for one. Because of our pressure, a few things have already developed. In February 1990, the director of the "Auschwitz- Museum", Dr. Franciszek Piper, asked the "Dr. Jan Sehn Institute" in Krakow, Poland, to prepare an expert opinion and tests on the alleged gas chambers. However, they have been put under "lock and key" since then and are not available for viewing. Why is that? Through reliable contacts we where able to obtain a copy of the test results from the Auschwitz-Museum. The results are devastating for the gas chamber supporters. The residue tests produced the same results as the "Leuchter-Report". Now, I am asking you; is the director of Auschwitz, perhaps, also an incorrigible Nazi?
J.GROSS: Why do you think, the gas chambers are just an invention?
RAMI: A lot of money is at stake. You could see it during the "Gulf war". As soon as the Israelis put their gas masks on, the money started to flow from Germany.
J.GROSS: I cannot tolerate such a choice of words. After all, the Jews have suffered under Hitler, no matter what.
RAMI: We Arabs, and particularly my brothers the Palestinians, are also suffering. Day-in day-out, many of them are being tortured and killed by the Israelis. Tanks are running, out of revenge mind you, over the legs of innocent children. Soldiers are smashing the wrists and knees of juveniles with large rocks and many of them are simply shot. But you Westerners are totally unmoved by it, as long as Israel is safe. No one will ever protest over a demeaning remark about the Palestinians, as you just did. The fact remains that your country, as of today, has paid 100 billion German Marks to the Jews as reparation and that is only the tip of the iceberg. Only recently, in 1989, your Government increased the reparation payments by another 30 billion German Marks. I hope, that Israel and the Jews in the diaspora will come to their senses. I hope that the millions and millions of "Survivors" will put an end to their gruesome gas chamber fantasies. Not before the truth is out, about the gas chambers, will we Arabs be free of the sufferings under the Israelis. Until now, the Israelis have always justified their crimes against the Palestinians by bringing up Auschwitz.
J.GROSS: Mr. Rami, I thank you for this interview.